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sometimes i wonder about europe as much as i love france posted by: publius 12:34 7.30.10 i have a visceral fear of the french police... http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/30/france.police.immigrant.eviction/index.html?hpt=C1#fbid=Imju5VSBYCS sometimes i wonder about europe... posted by: publius 12:18 7.1.10 but sometimes they get something right: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/07/01/finland.broadband/index.html?hpt=T2 that said, i do find the fact that a connection to the internet has become a commodity that requires equal rights legislation a bit disturbing...but so it goes.... johnny hallyday posted by: publius 11:45 12.16.09 when americans think of france, they tend to go all swoony about the eiffel tower, cafes, the louvre, etc. they very rarely think of johnny hallyday...but until your conception of france is large enough to encompass "the french elvis", you're missing some important pixels in the image. when i first saw the guy on tv when i lived there i thought it was a comedy act. i still chuckle to myself every time i see the guy. but to a certain cross-section of french society johnny hallyday is the real deal and as cool as they come. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6818509/Johnny-Hallyday-out-of-coma.html tintin posted by: publius 11:38 12.27.08 i dread with all the dread i can dread what will happen to tintin in spielberg's hands...i can't bear to watch, so it is safe to say that i won't... i just hope millou manages to bite steven during the filming... http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12795471 Chinese posted by: rahoohl_dewk 12:58 8.13.08 Japanese Dirty Knees Look at These http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lindyssports.com/images/content/139-500.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.theultimatefootballchallenge.com/blog/7&h=661&w=500&sz=38&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=RblKo_oua-if3M:&tbnh=138&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djen%2Bsterger%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enUS242US245%26sa%3DN even more... posted by: horsebeater 10:50 8.13.08 http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/basketball/news/story?id=3532682 And their name is posted by: camdolphin 07:06 6.28.08 Doody. this is funny. posted by: simplicissimus 16:00 6.26.08 and i am immature. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2698507.stm Dennis Miller on Germany posted by: prankmonkey 15:45 3.12.08 "I view a unified Germany much as I would view a Dean Martin/Jerry Lewis reunion: I wasn't a big fun of the old shit, and I'm not excited about what the new shit might be." Ah, the long-gone days when Miller was funny. . . germany posted by: publius 14:00 3.12.08 i have been saying this exact same thing for years and years...while we all go about fretting over the middle east and china and russia, someone had better keep an eye on the germans...it sounds absurd, but i'm telling you...the german national character, a long period of internalized shame and a charismatic leader... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080312/film_nm/nazis_dc_1 of course not only the germans are susceptible...the new film is based on an american tv special called "the wave" that i remember seeing in the 80s ... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/ i'm just saying that if i were a betting man, my money would be on deutschland... volleyball hooligans? posted by: publius 14:45 3.30.07 who knew? crazy greeks. http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/football/03/30/greece.suspension.reut/index.html eurovision... posted by: publius 20:26 5.20.06 won by a group of monster-mash finns called lordi... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordi there was an article a few weeks ago about these guys in the nyt magazine...hilarious stuff with finns getting their panties in a bunch about being represented by these guys... almost too bizarre to believe. posted by: publius 14:49 2.17.06 the italian high court has recently ruled that rape is a less severe offense if the victim is not a virgin at the time of the rape. this in a case in which a 14 year old girl who had some sexual experience was raped by a 41 year old man. sorry for the french link, but i'm sure you can track it down somewhere else if you like... http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3214,36-742678@51-742681,0.html lest there be any argument that the judgement is being misconstrued, or being taken out of context, here's a (my) translation of the judges' words in their decision.. "the damages caused by sexual violence are less severe if the victim has already had sexual relations with other men before her encounter with the rapist." you have got to be kidding me... a nice photo essay... posted by: publius 16:42 8.21.04 from (where else?) the times about the america/europe question. a narrow view to be sure, but well done (make sure to click on the slide show so you can the photos referenced in the article): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/21/opinion/21foreman.html Does Europe have a race proble posted by: horsebeater 15:50 6.22.04 Above in this thread, Publius makes a kind of argument that the Europeans are essentially equivalent to Americans when it comes to the treatment of the races. But I was re-reading the "Do Blacks Swim" post, and I noticed this quote from Publius, who says that in european soccer, "black players are still greeted by monkey noises and banana peels being thrown onto the pitch with, if not regularity, alarming frequency." I mean, you don't see that at the most racist Miss. St. / LSU games. And its things like that that make me think twice when someone says its the same over the atlantic as it is here. At this point, in 2004, the U.S. is probably out in front on race issues (including anti-semitism), just because we've had to confront them more than any other nation. nice to see... posted by: publius 16:48 6.4.04 a little bit of fair and balanced... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/opinion/04ROHA.html?pagewanted=print&position= all fair posted by: panurge 19:31 5.6.04 I dig small towns too. And properly busted on the facile red state/blue state thang (but I remain mystified by states that vote red-- and the point of the Harper's article was that voting red was against their interests, but not that they weren't, in the end, still voting red). I wasn't trying to throw value judgments in there. I was trying to say that they might have as much trouble understanding me as I do them-- NOT claiming (I hope) that one was better than the other, just different. And I am a steadfast believer that America has many different cultures and sometimes you fit in and sometimes you don't, all of which are beautiful and admirable in their own right (incl Alabama). I WISH I fit in in California. Seems like a great place; I just think that it's not for me b/c of a host of cultural things that were inculcated in me and them during the course of our lives. This isn't a cosmopolitan bias thing-- I hope it was clear that I don't think I fit in any more in STockholm than I do in Wichita (in fact, what I was saying was that I would fit in BETTER in Wichita than in Sweden, b/c I'm American). And following that admittedly tangled logic, I was questioning whether Europe was any different than America in its acceptance of others. It's not about getting in fights with the locals (HB's "going in there trying to provoke"), it's about fitting in in a permanent sense, feeling at home with the locals. All sorts of cultures can be hospitable (the Middle East is a famously hospitable place in the anthropological literature-- you can't get out of their homes without accepting at least 20 gifts and 3 meals), but do you want to stick around long term? In fact, what's funny is that, after having travelled a lot, I think the place I fit in most is where I grew up (NOT NYC, where I also don't feel quite at home, but have reconciled myself to it b/c it's my wife's home). I think in the end, most people just want to go home, and I think ultimately that's all I was trying to say. (But this point isn't without it's highly facile problems as well: e.g., how does the sense of home shift through the centuries?) I've always given Simpli a hard time about how he's catankerous b/c he's hasn't accepted his actual cultural affinities with the east coast, so that mailing was a long elaboration on that. And the idea that I kick around saying Europe is a utopia (the statement of his post) was a bit off for anyone who's read my dissertation (not that any poor soul should have read that; just that it's on the record that I'm a major critic). posted by: horsebeater 18:27 5.6.04 Now I'm starting a massive cross-pollinization of posts, but: (1) Panurge is essentially making the Brooks-esqe argument that there are "red states" and "blue states" with very different cultures. Simpli has (I think, but I'm not sure) previously criticized this by citing a Harper's article. Pan? Simpli? Who's right? (2) I grew up in semi-rural ohio (town of 14,000) and I will now tell Pan that rural Ohio doesn't suck and it's not so bad. Of course, I'm arguing from personal experience of what cultures are like, so while Publius should back me, I might have to criticize myself a few posts later on down the road. Honestly, I've noted from time to time that I was very lucky because I didn't know a single jew (to my knowledge) until I got to college. Because my folks and most of the locals weren't racist, and the ones that were had blacks and hispanics around to pick on, I essentially had no jewish preconceptions/biases whatsoever. The whole idea of being anti-semitic struck me as absurd. It was like having an anti-lutheran or anti-red hair bias. it made no sense to me (not that any racism really "makes sense" but you get the point). Now I realize your point is that it isn't judaism that would separate simpli, but I'm saying that many of the things that *you* see that *you* think would set you apart from the small town america aren't things that the small town folks would necessarily see or give a damn about. So unless you're walking in trying to provoke, I don't see that most people would have a problem in small towns. I don't want to go on too long on this; we can have another thread on how small towns don't suck (at worst they give you a little brother / manny ramirez type-feeling that isn't exactly respect for the town, but is a warm feeling), but you pushed my buttons and I had to say something. as for middle america, i yield posted by: ludwig 17:47 5.6.04 Blazing Saddles (paraphrasing here): 'You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. They have unchanging values. The salt of the earth people. You know, morons' And those are the good people, the bad peope are (agai, Hedley): rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists. soon to be revived... posted by: panurge 16:50 5.6.04 a lot of this thread is missing the more fundamental point: Simpli, you would feel uncomfortable in Europe because you're AMERICAN, not b/c you're Jewish. Ask the vast majority of Jews in Western Europe if they want to move to America, and they'd laugh at you. It's not as though the Jews of London or Paris can't move to the US today; they just don't want to-- they probably think you're a freak. It's always worth recalling the power of culture: Even I, someone who grew up for sizeable chunks of time in Sweden, have more relatives there than here, and speak the language fluently, DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE there. It's not necessarily about religion, it's about a million other little things, little things that make you and me of the same flesh and blood as opposed to our lack of connection with Europeans AND as opposed to the alleged things that separate you from me b/c of your religion (I'm not religious). the soon to be revived part is my simmering need to respond to the S. Africa thread of lo those many moons ago. Tell Bruce Ratner to stop destroying my neighborhood and I'll be ready to take on the barrage of hell that you guys will unleash on me; right now I'm too terrified of starting it up. But in the meantime, wouldn't it be intriguing to see what the same poll would show in America? Would it be much different? How safe do you feel in Wichita Kansas? How safe do I feel in Wichita, Kansas? Not very-- i.e., you and I have things in common that aren't about religion and those freaks don't like you and I for many of the same reasons. Once my friends and I spent a sleepless night in the woods of Michigan's upper peninsula, terrified of the locals. Come to terms with your urbane, privileged, liberal background bro-- I'll bet you wouldn't feel too at home with the orthodox Jews who go to summer in the Catskills any more than I do. You're just in a deep, deep denial of the fact that you're all too much like me (note tattoo qua fetisthized denial). Move back to the east coast, where you belong. The point is that you guys keep expecting people to be as "rational" as you are, and "think differently" about Israel. Guess what? Europeans are just as country bumpkin-ish as any country bumpkin in America, and they don't analyze the Israeli situation any differently than our compatriots analyze the Iraq situation. They don't sit around and think about the justifiability of 1967 or some such (which I do and I agree with you-- theoretically it's preposterous and laughable for someone to attack someone else, lose, and then still demand the land back); they just see what they're doing to the Palestinians NOW. You can argue with them till the cows come home, but they'll never see your logic and the world will never progress b/c of the show-down of stubbornness btwn yourselves and them. And as for the French (who I also share a distaste for), let's not forget for a minute how any Native American feels about their reigning govt. Oops, I forgot, most of them aren't even around to ask. I agree with Publius, we're just as duplicitous. There's a town in Oregon where there are tunnels for miles b/c when the cowboys showed up drunk, all the Chinese people living there had to hide underground so that they wouldn't get shot like deer. America is not some utopia that is friendly to all comers, nor is Europe. The Chinese word for "foreigner" is the same as their word for "devil". Everyone's always looking for someone to blame and hate. I agree with you, Simpli: Europe sucks to live in, FOR US. But stop claiming that the US is so stinking great; you love American cities (as do I), but I'll bet you're inherently uncomfortable in the countryside (Canton be damned-- it's rustbelt, not wheatbelt). And besides all that, personally I think NYC is one of the most anti-semitic places I've ever lived; I've never witnessed such a fascination with who's a wasp and who isn't. OK, that's it from me. Now I'll run for cover.... But in the meantime, follow Publius' prescription: Get passport. Use. well said, and i don't think w posted by: horsebeater 13:50 5.6.04 in general we'll have to agree posted by: publius 12:03 5.6.04 but i do need to clarify a point about the cute wandering jew (though simplicissimus is basically at the other end of the wandering bell curve from the wandering jew....) i did not mean to imply that he (we'll keep this thread personal) would not "feel uncomfortable at any time". in fact that comment was more a dig in a long-standing joke between myself and simplicissimus that he has never so much as set foot in europe. would he feel anti-semitism there? quite possibly. does he feel it to a very muted degree here from time to time? he's not extremely sensitive to such things in my (rather extensive) experience, but i would bet that the answer to that question would still be yes. would he actually experience it more acutely there as opposed to here? that's a whole different question, and that's where the personal experience does become relevant, because he said: "what i was saying -- and this was in response to a thread from a while back regarding anti-semetism -- is that it is funny to hear my dear friends, you, panurge, and others, go on and on about a distant continent and realize that it simply isn't a place i would likely feel nearly as comfortable being." that has the makings of nothing so much as a self-fulfilling prophecy. my point in bringing in my own personal experience (and telling simplicissimus to get some damned stamps in his passport) was not to grandstand in a "hey, look at me, open-minded seasoned world traveler! how dare you speak of that which you don't know?" it was simply to say that as a general rule, american opinions of europe, and lately france in particular, strike me as so hyperbolically one-sided and out of line with my experience that i wanted to add my two centimes for whatever it may or may not be worth. end of story, i think. as for the south's racism posted by: ludwig 11:50 5.6.04 i liked chris rock's riff from his new hbo special where he says, in essence, that Al Queda is not a real threat to most people. He conveys the message that other evils exist in America that are very real threats to the safety of lots of people (like racism and racial violence) but that America doesn't like to talk about that becasue it happens to the diempowered and implicates the white majority, instead, the media and the public inflate the threat from Al Queda. Tee best line is when he says: "I'm not worried about Al Queda . . . I'm worried about Al Cracker." the south and the french posted by: horsebeater 11:40 5.6.04 I guess your argument, publius, is that you're essentially arguing that you believe that we factually have it wrong and that the french have their problems, but that they are not really different than ours. You further imply that a random cute jew wandering the country would be unlikely to feel uncomfortable at any point in time. I guess my sense is that, yes, there is anti-semitism in france and europe, more than we have here in the u.s. It probably isn't in your face, but it exists, just like there's still racism in the south. All I'm doing is asking you to apply the same test to whether southern racism exists as you do to european anti-semitism. Maybe then you'd be more willing to believe something you didn't personally see much of but that others argue exists. As for duplicity, the French behavior in Iraq is / was disgusting. The UN scandal should be getting a lot more press (it's panurge's complaint about money ruling politics with "support of evil" added in as a kicker). Kickbacks coming to French businessmen and politicians that permit dictators to profit from oil sales in violation of international law, coupled with the French essentially constantly shifting positions on the Brits in the Security Counsel. Now their position is "led us enter into contracts below market with Iraq and we'll let the UN have more of a role." The greed is a little out of bounds. I'm not trying to dissuade personal experience. Honestly, I respect your opinion and your post changed my view to some extent, but I'm far from convinced that French society doesn't have some problems over and above those we've got here in the U.S. so as not to be accused of rev posted by: publius 22:22 5.4.04 instead of simply revising the above post in the database post-submission, i'll simply make a mental note to myself to proofread better...and note that the title was supposed to have continued into the body. together it should have read "of course the analogy holds true for some situations....and can be made to look ridiculours in others." of course the analogy holds fo posted by: publius 21:50 5.4.04 that's almost my point exactly. no issues really with your word replacement game. cross mad-libs with the pot calling the kettle black and you're there. as for the logic above the stars, i didn't say anything remotely that silly, or draw any such absurd conclusions. i think all i really said, and all i really meant, is that the american across-all-demographics over-simplification of europe as a whole irks me. as for me setting up shop there - that's a just a personal preference. i'd rather live my life there than elsewhere. the french were getting bitch-slapped and i felt like chiming in with my personal opinion/experience. is that indictable, horsebeater? is publius's argument like thi posted by: horsebeater 20:48 5.4.04 I (HB) lived in Richmond, Virginia in 6 weeks once, and I didn't personally see or hear any racism against blacks, so that means there's no racism in Richmond, Virginia. Let's do a fun word replacement: ************* and actually having lived there i think i'm entitled to be if i so choose, the [alabamans] are no more or less [racist] than anyone else as far as i'm concerned. and to say that the [alabamans] don't recognize their own despicable [past] is patently false. ask any [alabaman] about [mobile] and they will immediately tell you that it's where the [confederacy] rounded up [slaves] in and around [alabama] prior to shipping them to [the south]. if anything, [albamans] are hyper-aware of these things, at least internally. the fact that the version of [alabama] one gets through the (particularly [northern]) media is skewed is an understatement. again, i'm not mythologizing here. they've got their issues and they hypocrisies like any other people/government. but in everything i've seen and everywhere i've lived, it's my belief that [southerners] have figured out how to live a life better than almost anyone else. without a doubt, when i'm out of school, i'm moving to [alabama] and setting up shop permanently at the first opportunity [because they aren't racist]. advice to simplicissimus... posted by: publius 17:04 4.29.04 get passport. use. you misunderstand posted by: simplicissimus 16:23 4.29.04 i'm not denouncing the french. and certainly not denouncing those who refuse to denounce them. what i was saying -- and this was in response to a thread from a while back regarding anti-semetism -- is that it is funny to hear my dear friends, you, panurge, and others, go on and on about a distant continent and realize that it simply isn't a place i would likely feel nearly as comfortable being. which really mystifies me. admit it, it is an incredible fact, one that is more interesting the more you ponder it, that europe could be so evolved on one level and so moronic (but destructively so) on another. i don't proofread well posted by: ludwig 16:15 4.29.04 or at all, really. simpli - can i get an "amen" on baseball? lord know the us... posted by: publius 16:13 4.29.04 has no history of tsk-tsking the actions of other nations without looking at their own. we're god's chosen, after all. and one last time (well, maybe not last - i may not be able to restrain myself) die baseball, die! (and for fuck's sake ludwig: "the sox one the first game"? i two the sandbox...oh no, i eight the sandbox!) they may recognize their actio posted by: ludwig 16:08 4.29.04 but they seem incapable of applying that knowledge to the current situation. i understand your "we're all bastards" point - fair enough. but the french have a bad habit of tsk tsk-ing against the actions other nations take without looking at their own. their support of the hutus in rwanda is another great example. they are knowledgable of their role in the holocasut. fine, i accept that. but that doesn;t mena that they aren't anti-semites and supported a government (not tolerated, as the us did) that went on a genocidal rampage. that having been said, the sox one the first game of a double header. 14-6, baby. Hopefully 15-6 by the end of the night. i am a well-known francophile. posted by: publius 15:56 4.29.04 and actually having lived there i think i'm entitled to be if i so choose, the french are no more or less duplicitous than anyone else as far as i'm concerned. and to say that the french don't recognize their own despicable actions is patently false. ask any french what the vélodrome d'hiver is and they will immediately tell you that it's where the french government rounded up jews in and around paris prior to shipping them to germany in a less well known instance of appeasement. if anything, the french are hyper-aware of these things, at least internally. the fact that the version of the french one gets through the (particularly american) media is skewed is an understatement. again, i'm not mythologizing here. they've got their issues and they hypocrisies like any other people/government. but in everything i've seen and everywhere i've lived, it's my belief that the french have figured out how to live a life better than almost anyone else. without a doubt, when i'm out of school, i'm moving to paris and setting up shop permanently at the first opportunity. i love the hypocrsiy posted by: ludwig 14:31 4.29.04 of europeans, particularly the french, who denoucne israel - particularly israel's denial of the right of return to palestinians. the french, who eagerly collaborated and happily packed up jews in box cars and shipped them to their death - mitterand, in particular - would not be as warm and fuzzy to the jews and their descendants who want to reclaim the property and hgousing that the french took and happily moved into once the jews were shipped out. disgraceful. they never recognize their own despicable actions. it wasn't a faceless bureacracy or army that allowed the holocaust to happen. it was individuals making indiviudal decisions. the best quote posted by: horsebeater 13:54 4.29.04 "What's more amazing than the percentage of people who hold those opinions is the percentage of people willing to express them." for all the props the young am posted by: simplicissimus 12:54 4.29.04 you still get things like this. http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ABFEAC03-DA50-4EEF-A466-3BF09678BC95.htm not the end of the world and not all that shocking. just strange to be confronted with the fact that a paradise for my compadres would unlikely be a paradise for me. i', beginning to understand -- even if can't say i'm very happy about it -- more and more why jews become increasingly clannish as they get older.